Posts by Disillusioned JW

208

How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?

by psyco in

i remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.

thanks..

Disillusioned JW

scholar even if modern biblical scholars (and I) are indefinite as to whether the destruction happened in 587 BCE or 586 BCE they (and I) are definite that it did not happen in 607 BCE. They are in agreement that it definitely did not happen any time before 587 BCE and that it definitely did not happen any time after 586 BCE.

Your argument is flawed where you say the following. "How can a calculated precise date of 607 BCE be wrong when you cannot agree as to whether it is 587 or 586 BCE for the Fall of Jerusalem? How can it be that a definite date-607 BCE be falsified by an indefinite date-586 or 587 BCE?" 607 BCE is not a definite year for the destruction, in the sense of it being proven as a correct date by a consensus of biblical scholars. It is only 'definite' in the sense of it being one specific year and in the sense that the WT and many JWs teach it is correct, but those people are not biblical scholars. The governing body of the WT and the other writers of the WT's literature (except maybe for rare exceptions of the Writing Committee) and nearly all of the other JWs did not get a university degree in biblical studies, nor an studies of any middle eastern ancient history, nor in ancient middle eastern languages. Extant archaeological artifacts in no way indicate that the destruction happened in 607 BCE or even in some year within the range of 607 BCE plus or minus 10 years. In contrast biblical scholars have demonstrated a precision of their date to within 1 single year, without having to resort to claims made in biblical prophecies (such as a prophecy in the book of Jeremiah). Instead, the biblical scholars made use of extant historical records which said that it happened during a specific year of a specific king's reign, however the years for the start of a king's reign don't start in the same month as the years of our Gregorian calendar years start in. For a hypothetical example, one year of the reign of a king might have started in March 15, 587 BCE and ended in March 14, 586 BCE (like a fiscal year of a modern day corporation; for example one whose 10th year of operation was from May 2010 through April 2011, instead of from January 1, 2010 - December 31, 2010). As a result when one reads an ancient document that says an event happened in a specific year of the king (such as perhaps the 19th year of the king), which doesn't also mention the month (or give a clue as to the month), that means that according to our calendar it might have been in the year 587 BCE or the year 586 BCE, in this hypothetical example, according to our Gregorian calendar, but definitely not 607 BCE. That is because in this hypothetical example the 19th year of the king overlapped with parts of two years of our modern day Gregorian calendar.

Consider the following as another example. Someone might say that something happened in either in 400 CE or 401 CE, and definitely not in some other year (such as the year 350 CE). Someone else might say it happened in 350 CE instead. Just because someone might be uncertain as to whether it happened in 400 CE instead of in 401 CE, that doesn't mean they are wrong in being certain it didn't happen in some year which was neither than 400 CE nor 401 CE. It does not mean the one who say it happened in 350 CE is correct.

208

How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?

by psyco in

i remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.

thanks..

Disillusioned JW

The WT believes in a form of Second Adventism but Second Adventism is incorrect, for there is no Christ in heaven; Jesus if he ever existed is dead, not alive in heaven. As a result the WT gives an extremely incorrect portrayal of where people are in the stream of time.

There will be no battle of Armageddon in the biblical sense; no bowls of wrath will be poured out (nor have been poured out) from God in heaven upon the Earth. Christ will not go to war against human armies and human governments, nor against individual humans (such as those whom the WT claims are a part of Babylon the Great). Christ did not kick Satan the Devil out of heaven in 1914 (or at any other time), since Satan the Devil does not exist as an actual being (but only 'exists' in the sense of an incorrect imaginary idea of many humans).

208

How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?

by psyco in

i remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.

thanks..

Disillusioned JW

scholar I notice you wrote "... WT Chronology is based not on Barbour but Charles Russell and his associates ...". By including "not on Barbour" in your words you made it look like you were claiming that Barbour was not one of Russell associates. But the WT's Proclaimers book admits that for a period time that Barbour was one of Russell's associates and that Russell got his chronology of 'prophetic' dates from Barbour. Interestingly the same WT web page I mentioned (in my prior post) of chapter 5 of the Proclaimers book says the following. "Because their present understanding of Bible truths and their activities can be traced back to the 1870’s and the work of C. T. Russell and his associates, and from there to the Bible and early Christianity." That gives me the impression that you got your wording of "... Charles Russell and his associates ..." from the Proclaimers book. So why not accept that Barbour for a period time was an associate of Russell (since the Proclaimers book admits he was) and that Russell and the WT (in its early years) got their "prophetic" date chronology from Barbour? Granted the WT (under Rutherford) later abandoned a number of Barbour's dates and replaced some them with other dates (such as replacing 1874 with 1914 and replacing 1878 with 1918). But the WT's 1914 date is one which they got from Barbour. Also their 607 BCE date is a very slight revision of the Barbour's 606 BC date. Furthermore, the WT retains the 2,520 year number which Russell got from Barbour.

Regarding the chronology which the WT had while Russell was alive the WT's online edition of the Proclaimers book says the following.

'Concerning the chronology he often presented, Russell stated: “When we say ‘our’ chronology we merely mean the one we use, the Bible chronology, which belongs to all of God’s people who approve it. As a matter of fact it was used in practically the form we present it long before our day, just as various prophecies we use were used to a different purpose by Adventists, and just as various doctrines we hold and which seem so new and fresh and different were held in some form long ago: for instance—Election, Free Grace, Restitution, Justification, Sanctification, Glorification, Resurrection.” '

Update: I now notice that while I was composing this post you (scholar) posted a post (4 minutes before I posted this post) in which you admit that Russell was indebted to Barbour and that Barbour's chronology influenced the chronology which Russell and the WT later adopted. That is good.

However the WT is very wrong in saying that Jerusalem and the kingdom of Judah fell in 607 BCE, Whereas secular chronology is correct in saying it fell in 587 BCE. Furthermore the WT is wrong is saying became king over the Earth invisibly in heaven in 1914. The WT needs to ditch their second adventist derived chronology pertaining to 607 BCE, 1914, and 1918, as well as the idea of Christ's invisible presence as king. Those ideas are rubbish - not the secular date of 587 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem.

scholar you comment of "... such Bible Chronology enables faithful people to locate themselves in the stream of time by means of being able to understand Prophecy" is incorrect in regards to 607 BCE and 1914 CE. There is no personal God, not even Jehovah God. Jehovah God as described and defined in the Bible definitely does not exist.

208

How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?

by psyco in

i remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.

thanks..

Disillusioned JW

scholar, some the WT's publications say that Russell admitted to getting his chronology and some other ideas, including that pertaining to so-called prophetic dates, (at least some of it) from Second Adventists (including from Barbour). Before the Watch Tower magazine came into existence, Russell and Barbour published of a book written by Barbour called Three Worlds, and the Harvest of This World (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_H._Barbour ). It mentioned 606 BC, 1874 (or 1873), 1878, 1914, and other daters. I read a much of it online. The above mentioned Wikipedia article says the following.

'Though it bore the names of both Barbour and Russell as publishers, the book was written entirely by Barbour, a former Millerite, who used some of preacher William Miller's teachings as its basis.[2][3] Barbour’s writings were highly influential in the development of Russell’s later teachings, which led to the formation of the Bible Student movement and later, Jehovah’s Witnesses. Its computations of the length of the "times of the Gentiles" mentioned at Luke 21:24, calculated as 2,520 years from 606 BC[4] used an interpretation that is still adhered to by Jehovah's Witnesses.[2]

It used the year-day system of interpreting prophecies, presented the idea of a 360-day "prophetic year" and a historicist interpretation of the book of Revelation. It drew on the millenarian studies of 19th-century writers in formulating a system that demonstrated remarkable biblical-mathematical "correspondencies" and modified Bishop James Ussher's chronological calculation to declare that 6,000 years of human history had ended in the autumn of 1873 and that a "morning of joy" was about to begin for humankind.[2] '

Also in 1877 Barbour published Russell's pamphlet called Object and Manner of Our Lord's Return. That pamphlet book/booklet was Russell's first publication. A PDF of that pamphlet can be read online at https://archive.org/details/TheObjectAndMannerOfOurLordsReturn . See also https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/150248/scanned-pdf-russells-1st-book-object-manner-our-lords-return . The opening post at that web page says the following. "The Object and Manner of Our Lord's Return was C. T. Russell's first book (or booklet) and has 64 pages. I think this definitively lays to rest the claim sometimes made that it was first published in 1872 (and thus before the 1874 prediction) as it's clearly labelled 1877 and in the text refers to N.H. Barbour, whom Russell did not meet until 1876."

A different post at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/150248/scanned-pdf-russells-1st-book-object-manner-our-lords-return says the following. "As can be plainly seen in the PDF, Object and Manner gives an 1877 publication date and references Barbour, whom Russell had never heard of in 1873. Having Russell active in publishing before he met Barbour makes him appear more independent. However, he got most of his ideas from Barbour and Object and Manner dates from after he met Barbour."

https://archive.org/details/1875-1880HeraldOfTheMorningAssortedIssues has PDFs of some issues of Herald Of The Morning. A description at that web page says the following.

'1874-1880 Herald of the Morning (assorted issues). Contains scans of several issues of Herald of the Morning magazine, edited by Nelson H. Barbour and co-edited by Charles Taze Russell for about two and a half years. In the summer of 1876, Russell accepted Barbour's understanding of biblical chronology, believing that Christ had returned invisibly in 1874. Russell and Barbour broke fellowship in 1879 and Russell went on to start Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence in 1879. Russell retained the basics of Barbour's chronology until his death. In 1880, however, Barbour rejected the idea that Christ had returned invisibly in 1874, opting for a future return of Christ. The magazine started by Russell is now called The Watchtower and is now circulated by Jehovah's Witnesses.

The WT at https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/Jehovahs-Witnesses-Proclaimers-of-Gods-Kingdom/You-Are-My-Witnesses-Says-Jehovah/Proclaiming-the-Lords-Return-1870-1914/ has an apparently revised edition of one chapter of their Proclaimers book. It admits the following.

'Russell referred quite openly to the assistance in Bible study he had received from others. Not only did he acknowledge his indebtedness to Second Adventist Jonas Wendell but he also spoke with affection about two other individuals who had aided him in Bible study. Russell said of these two men: “The study of the Word of God with these dear brethren led, step by step, into greener pastures.” One, George W. Stetson, was an earnest student of the Bible and pastor of the Advent Christian Church in Edinboro, Pennsylvania.

The other, George Storrs, was publisher of the magazine Bible Examiner, in Brooklyn, New York.

... One morning in January 1876, 23-year-old Russell received a copy of a religious periodical called Herald of the Morning. From the picture on the cover, he could see that it was identified with Adventism. The editor, Nelson H. Barbour, of Rochester, New York, believed that the object of Christ’s return was not to destroy the families of the earth but to bless them and that his coming would be not in the flesh but as a spirit. ... Curiously, though, Barbour believed from Biblical time-prophecies that Christ was already present (invisibly) and that the harvest work of gathering “the wheat” (true Christians making up the Kingdom class) was already due.—Matt., chap. 13.

Russell had shied away from Biblical time prophecies. Now, however, he wondered: “Could it be that the time prophecies which I had so long despised, because of their misuse by Adventists, were really meant to indicate when the Lord would be invisibly present to set up his Kingdom?” With his insatiable thirst for Scriptural truth, Russell had to learn more. So he arranged to meet with Barbour in Philadelphia. This meeting confirmed their agreement on a number of Bible teachings and provided an opportunity for them to exchange views. “When we first met,” Russell later stated, “he had much to learn from me on the fulness of restitution based upon the sufficiency of the ransom given for all, as I had much to learn from him concerning time.” Barbour succeeded in convincing Russell that Christ’s invisible presence had begun in 1874. * '

141

My Prediction Regarding New Space Telescope That Will See Back to 100 Million Years From the Big Bang

by Sea Breeze in

a new space telescope launched a few days age that will supposedly be able to see to within 100 million years of the big bang.

wow... only 100 million years from the big bang.

that is pretty early given the 12 billion year age of the universe assigned by scholars who adhere to naturalism.

Disillusioned JW

Yesterday I found the science article located at https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/02/230222115828.htm which is called "James Webb spots super old, massive galaxies that shouldn't exist". The article is dated February 22, 2023 (the same day I found it.) A summary of it says the following. "A team of international researchers have identified six candidate galaxies that existed roughly 500 to 700 million years after the Big Bang and are about as big as the modern Milky Way Galaxy -- a feat that scientists didn't think was possible." The article says in part the following.

'Each of the candidate galaxies may have existed at the dawn of the universe roughly 500 to 700 million years after the Big Bang, or more than 13 billion years ago. They’re also gigantic, containing almost as many stars as the modern-day Milky Way Galaxy.

“It’s bananas,” said Erica Nelson, co-author of the new research and assistant professor of astrophysics at the University of Colorado Boulder. “You just don’t expect the early universe to be able to organize itself that quickly. These galaxies should not have had time to form.”

Nelson and her colleagues, including first author Ivo Labbé of the Swinburne University of Technology in Australia, published their results Feb. 22 in the journal Nature.

The latest finds aren’t the earliest galaxies observed by James Webb, which launched in December 2021 and is the most powerful telescope ever sent into space. Last year, another team of scientists spotted four galaxies that likely coalesced from gas around 350 million years after the Big Bang. Those objects, however, were downright shrimpy compared to the new galaxies, containing many times less mass from stars.

... These primordial galaxies, however, probably didn’t have much in common with our own.

“The Milky Way forms about one to two new star every year,” Nelson said. “Some of these galaxies would have to be forming hundreds of new stars a year for the entire history of the universe.”

Nelson and her colleagues want to use James Webb to collect a lot more information about these mysterious objects, but they’ve seen enough already to pique their curiosity. For a start, calculations suggest there shouldn’t have been enough normal matter—the kind that makes up planets and human bodies—at that time to form so many stars so quickly.

“If even one of these galaxies is real, it will push against the limits of our understanding of cosmology,” Nelson said.'

To me this evidence supports the idea that the universe is much older than what the Big Bang theory says and even that universe (in some form) has always existed, and thus supports the idea that no deity created the universe, and thus it supports scientific naturalism. Regarding the idea that the universe possibly had no beginning see the science article called "What if the universe had no beginning? ". It says in part the following.

'Perhaps our universe has always existed — and a new theory of quantum gravity reveals how that could work.

"Reality has so many things that most people would associate with sci-fi or even fantasy," said Bruno Bento, a physicist who studies the nature of time at the University of Liverpool in the U.K.

In his work, he employed a new theory of quantum gravity, called causal set theory, in which space and time are broken down into discrete chunks of space-time. At some level, there's a fundamental unit of space-time, according to this theory.

Bento and his collaborators used this causal-set approach to explore the beginning of the universe. They found that it's possible that the universe had no beginning — that it has always existed into the infinite past and only recently evolved into what we call the Big Bang.

... General relativity, on the other hand, is the most powerful and complete description of gravity ever devised.

But for all its strengths, general relativity is incomplete. In at least two specific places in the universe, the math of general relativity simply breaks down, failing to produce reliable results: in the centers of black holes and at the beginning of the universe. These regions are called "singularities," which are spots in space-time where our current laws of physics crumble, and they are mathematical warning signs that the theory of general relativity is tripping over itself. Within both of these singularities, gravity becomes incredibly strong at very tiny length scales.

As such, to solve the mysteries of the singularities, physicists need a microscopic description of strong gravity, also called a quantum theory of gravity.

... causal set theory, reimagines space-time as a series of discrete chunks, or space-time "atoms." This theory would place strict limits on how close events can be in space and time, since they can't be any closer than the size of the "atom."

... "A huge part of the causal set philosophy is that the passage of time is something physical, that it should not be attributed to some emergent sort of illusion or to something that happens inside our brains that makes us think time passes; this passing is, in itself, a manifestation of the physical theory," Bento said. "So, in causal set theory, a causal set will grow one 'atom' at a time and get bigger and bigger."

The causal set approach neatly removes the problem of the Big Bang singularity because, in the theory, singularities can't exist. It's impossible for matter to compress down to infinitely tiny points — they can get no smaller than the size of a space-time atom.

... In our work instead, there would be no Big Bang as a beginning, as the causal set would be infinite to the past, and so there's always something before."

Their work implies that the universe may have had no beginning — that it has simply always existed. What we perceive as the Big Bang may have been just a particular moment in the evolution of this always-existing causal set, not a true beginning.'

141

My Prediction Regarding New Space Telescope That Will See Back to 100 Million Years From the Big Bang

by Sea Breeze in

a new space telescope launched a few days age that will supposedly be able to see to within 100 million years of the big bang.

wow... only 100 million years from the big bang.

that is pretty early given the 12 billion year age of the universe assigned by scholars who adhere to naturalism.

Disillusioned JW

The science show I referred to in m prior post was an episode of NOVA called "New Eye on the Universe". The show said that what the James Webb telescope revealed about the early universe was very unexpected (according to the current scientific models used to model the very early universe) and thus indicated that some of the particular current scientific models (the ones used to model the very early universe) are in error and need to be revised. However I think this indicates that the universe is much older than most astrophysicists believe, and thus supports the idea that universe has always existed and that there never was any big bang of a cosmic singularity. I have never been convinced that our universe was once a cosmic singularity, though upon learning of details of the big bang I started believing that out universe started out with a volume smaller than that of an individual atom. There are some scientists, based upon scientific reasons, who say our universe has always existed and that there was never a big bang which made our universe.

In my locality the the science episode will repeat in a few hours after the time of the submission of this post. I intend to watch the show when it repeats and I hope to make notes of what it says.

On page 11 of this topic thread Sea Breeze said the following in a reply to me and Anony Mous. "The BB theory has a history of failed predictions and only explains about 5% of the universe according to its own theory". Recently I found a scientific news article about a scientist saying that black holes create dark energy. See https://www.space.com/black-holes-create-dark-energy-first-evidence and https://www.newscientist.com/article/2359827-dark-energy-may-have-been-hiding-in-the-cores-of-black-holes-all-along/ .

141

My Prediction Regarding New Space Telescope That Will See Back to 100 Million Years From the Big Bang

by Sea Breeze in

a new space telescope launched a few days age that will supposedly be able to see to within 100 million years of the big bang.

wow... only 100 million years from the big bang.

that is pretty early given the 12 billion year age of the universe assigned by scholars who adhere to naturalism.

Disillusioned JW

Last night on television on PBS I saw a science program about the James Webb telescope. It was a very good and very informative show. It said some things which I think Sea Breeze would appreciate.

773

Breaking News: Anthony Morris III no longer serving on the Governing Body

by WingCommander in

jw
friends

this has been announced on the jw's official website, in the "jw news" section.

this is not a joke.

anthony moron da turd is out as a gluttonous body member!

Disillusioned JW

Thanks WingCommander for your reply to my comment. Your reply is very informative.

773

Breaking News: Anthony Morris III no longer serving on the Governing Body

by WingCommander in

jw
friends

this has been announced on the jw's official website, in the "jw news" section.

this is not a joke.

anthony moron da turd is out as a gluttonous body member!

Disillusioned JW

I think it is quite possible that Tony Morris received a liver transplant accompanied with blood transfusions and I think he might have told governing body members that he thinks blood transfusions are acceptable, and was removed as a governing body member for those reasons. The following is why.

- At https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5144908181012480/can-this-rumor-true the opening post says "Rumor has it there is “new light” (gag!) regarding blood and organ transplants since a recent royal member on the WTS board" [apparently referring to a governing body member] "found reason to ok one for himself!"

- A number of posts on this website say that governing body probably wants to remove the blood transfusion policy. I think I also read that some of the governing body members think the blood transfusion policy should be ended. I think it is quite possible that some governing body members have tried to convince other governing body members that the blood transfusion policy should be ended, and that they might have urged a vote by the governing body on the matter.

- A number of posts on this website say the Anthony (Tony) Morris III drinks alcoholic drinks excessively.

- Drinking alcohol excessively for years often results in alcoholic fatty liver disease and that can result in cirrhosis of the liver. Cirrhosis of the liver is very harmful.

- Anthony (Tony) Morris III is over weight and elderly and those are both risk factors for fatty liver disease.

- If someone receives a liver transplant they also have to have many units of blood transfusions. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2967283/ says "Liver transplantation also is associated with the use of large volumes of blood, considerably more than with most other surgical procedures."

208

How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?

by psyco in

i remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.

thanks..

Disillusioned JW

Alethia and others, the NWT is not alone is saying "first" or "starting" (or an expression with a similar meaning) in Jeremiah 25:29. For example, Jeremiah 25:29 (Revised English Bible) says "I shall first punish the city which bears my name; do you think that you can be exempt? No, you will not be exempt, for I am summoning a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth. This is the word of the LORD of Hosts."The Revised English Bible (REB) is a revision of the New English Bible (NEB). The rendering of the NEW Bible is one which the WT (including Fred Franz?) a number of times liked in a number of Bible verses and it might have influenced the WT interpretation of some verses (or reassured them of their interpretation [for example, the WT used the 1970 NEB wording of the latter part of John 1:1 to support the NWT wording of "a god"]).

Regarding the meaning of "all the inhabitants" the commentary in the Oxford Study Bible: Revised English Bible with the Apocrypha says the following. "City which bears my name: Jerusalem. All the inhabitants of the earth is an apocalyptic phrase; see following note. 30-38: This whole passage has the flavor of the flavor of apocalypse, the prediction of a violent intervention of God into human history for judgment." I think the commentary is implying that some of the prophecy did not come true literally, by saying "All the inhabitants of the earth is an apocalyptic phrase", and is thus trying to downplay taking seriously that part of the prophecy.

Jeremiah 25:29 (New Revised Standard Version) says "See, I am beginning to bring disaster on the city that is called by my name, and how can you possibly avoid punishment? You shall not go unpunished, for I am summoning sword against all of the inhabitants of the earth, says the LORD of hosts." Even the ESV (which Alethia quoted) says "begin". Even the 1995 NASB (a very literal translation) at Jeremiah 25:29 says "... I am beginning to work calamity in this city ...". The Byington translation at Jeremiah 25:29 says "... I am beginning with the city ...". Likewise even the Revised Version (RV) Bible of 1885 at Jeremiah 25:29 says "... I begin to work evil at the city ...".

Jeremiah 25:29 provides context to interpreting Jeremiah 25:18 as to which city or nation the book of Jeremiah says will receive judgment first, and thus it supports the NWT (2013) saying "starting" at Jeremiah 25:18, and thus I must admit it strongly supports the claims and exegesis of the Bible by scholar (from a biblical text perspective if not a secular perspective) in this aspect. It should be noted however that the NWT of 1984 (a more literal translation than the NWT of 2013) does not say "starting' at Jeremiah 25:18 though it does say "starting off" at Jeremiah 25:29.

The Abingdon Bible Commentary (1929) [which is one of the main non-WT commentaries which I use because it impresses me greatly] on page 694 says regarding Jeremiah chapter 25 "... Jehovah is about to bring all the families of the North (v. 9, cf. 1:14) against Jerusalem first, but also against all of the nations around it."

I remember that when I was an active JW the WT published more than once the idea that the Bible reveals that Jehovah brings his judgements and punishments first upon his own guilty people and then to guilty gentile people. Likewise the Bible says (if I recall correctly) that Jehovah cleanses his holy sanctuary first and then cleanses other areas.

The commentary edited by Dummelow called A Commentary on The Holy Bible (1909), on page 470 in regards to Jeremiah chapter 25 says the following. "The prophet advises submission to Babylon as God's agent, but promises its overthrow at the end of the seventy years' captivity which impends. He announces the judgement that shall descend on the nations.' However, in regards to verse 11 and the expression of "seventy years" the same commentary book says the following. "The Jewish love of round numbers would lead them to consider the number seventy used in such a connexion [sic.] as standing for any approximation to that amount. The captivity seems to have been, in fact, for somewhat less than seventy years."